Soma Rising

So Your Pain In The Butt Has A Guy: A Conversation with Douglas Nelson

• Tabitha MacDonald • Episode 63

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What if the fastest way to restore hope is as simple as a precise touch and the words, “Do you mean here or here?” That moment of validation sits at the center of this conversation with Doug Nelson, founder of Precision Neuromuscular Therapy, as we explore how specificity, feedback, and presence transform stubborn pain into possibility.

We start with Doug’s pivot from a music career to manual therapy, then dig into why hands-on work can create rapid change that inspires long-term self-care. Doug shares the hard truth about modern healthcare’s drift from palpation to imaging, and why replicating a client’s symptoms with skilled touch cuts through doubt and accelerates trust. We contrast general relaxation with targeted problem-solving, unpack mislabels like plantar fasciitis, and explain the habit of trying to falsify your own hypothesis—because scientific humility makes treatment smarter.

If you’ve felt burnout nibbling at your craft, this is your reset. Depth is the antidote. Revisit anatomy, question what you “know,” and design sessions that collect real feedback in real time. Mission outlasts goals; results beat marketing; and curiosity builds careers that endure. Subscribe, share with a colleague who needs the spark, and leave a review with one change you’ll bring to your next session.

RESOURCES

More about Douglas Nelson:  https://www.bodyworkassociates.com/

Precision Neuromuscular Therapy:  https://www.pnmt.org/


This is Soma Rising: Conversations for a Conscious Future —where health, wealth, love, and purpose flow together on the Golden Path of alignment.  Learn more at somatribe.org

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Website: soma-massage.net

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Tabitha MacDonald is an Intuitive Coach and Bodyworker committed to helping people overcome pain fast so they can experience the love, success, freedom, and fulfillment they truly desire.

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SPEAKER_03:

Hello and welcome. My name is Tabitha McDonald, and I am so excited to have one of my mentors and massage heroes on the Summerflow podcast today. Welcome Doug Nelson. He is the founder of uh PNMT Northwest, or is it NMT Mid Midwest?

SPEAKER_01:

Midwest. Precision Neuromuscular Therapy Incorporated. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. And he also owns the is it NMT Midwest Clinic in Champion, Illinois?

SPEAKER_01:

Actually, it's Body Work Associates with the name of the clinic.

SPEAKER_03:

I am failing.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, no, it's all right.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, I started studying with Doug right out of massage school when I graduated the second time in the US. And he came to me by the way of my friend Brandon. And um, I'm so grateful that I got to have you as my mentor in the beginning of my career because I think it changed the trajectory of how I worked. I actually wanted to work in a spa until I met you. And then I was like, oh, we could we could do better. So um, yeah. So that's so I would um love just to like hear a little bit about you and how you got into massage and um what you do now for the world of body work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So this is my well, I uh I can't can't do the math really quickly, but I I started in uh 1978, actually. So that's uh that's been a while actually doing this work. And you know, Tabitha, the interesting thing for me is I originally got into this, started with music, and then I I was it was pretty clear to me that that was not going to be my career. That was painful because I everything was going that way, and and my friends all went on to do amazing things, but I knew for me personally that wasn't gonna happen. And um, so I ended up um Can I ask why?

SPEAKER_03:

How did you figure how did you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, my friends who were there was a level of passion, commitment, this deep, deep sense of purpose that I saw in them that at a level inside I knew I didn't have. And uh, and that was really tough to see something in them that I knew I did not possess. Um, even though I was, you know, trying and making an effort, but deep down inside I knew that's not gonna, that's not who I am. And and that what's harder, it's hard to make that decision. It's even harder when your little tribe is all going that way. And and then for me, realizing I can't go with them.

SPEAKER_03:

And uh so um what I ended up doing is very self-reflective for a young man.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um yeah, uh all I can think of is just it was painful. So um, so I ended up uh like I still had to eat and like pay the rent and stuff. So I ended up teaching people how to play. That the my instrument at the time was the guitar, and uh, so I taught lots of lessons. And what I saw was that people knew what to do, they just couldn't execute it, right? And so that was a somatic thing. I had gotten interested in um uh yoga and eastern philosophy and that sort of thing. So I ended up studying yoga for a long time in a residential uh setting, uh, spent a year and a half there, and um, and met someone who uh also moved in who had just finished the his massage therapy training, and that's how I got uh introduced to it. And what I saw then is is really what motivates me now, which is that through you know many disciplines, yoga is one example, like you can do tremendous self-care, right? But that takes time, and with hands-on approaches, we can create change really fast, and and and that gives people hope. You you need to do the other things as a to to to sustain things, and that's great. But if you don't hope that change is possible, you're probably not gonna do that. And that's when I saw the power and the promise of manual approaches. Um, it's a little hard to look back over so many years ago and think, did I really fully understand that? Um, so I'm, you know, but I I think so. Um I was just on fire with the idea that that um that you could do so much with the human hand. And what's also interesting about that is after a couple of years, I thought I should go on and do some sort of, you know, something else. And uh in terms of more education, become a physical therapist. Well, at the time, this was back then, physical therapists did not do any kind of manual stuff. That was perceived as like, oh, we used to do that, we don't do that anymore. We have new cool stuff to do. And um, so that uh that was a bit of a yeah, actually, I tried to go to school, but several deans just told me that they would never be able to train the massage therapy part of that out of me. And you know, I didn't realize it was a deficit.

SPEAKER_03:

Um I would I would have taken that as a compliment, but I guess a different perspective.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, really? You know, and again, you have to remember the time period this was, and and people didn't think uh a lot of massage therapy at the time, uh as you could imagine. I mean, this is you know early 80s, so um, yeah, a little different context then, and um, but I I was just maybe uh too naive to even think that this could fail. Or I, you know, I just pushed along and envisioned something that I hope to have happen. Um, you know, and um so off, you know, off I went. And um, you know, that that's how everything in a way began.

SPEAKER_03:

I love I love that because I just hear absolute soul alignment, like kind of like your higher self was like, nope, you you're that's the wrong path. We're gonna make sure people slap you off that course and and on the right one.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Because I thought about being a physical therapist too after a while, and then I thought, why? I my clients always say that they get better results and certain things with what I do. Why would I trade what I do for something different? Like when it works.

SPEAKER_01:

So um Yeah, you know, I just got a really big award from the University of Illinois, and um what's interesting is I didn't go to the U. I didn't uh, you know, um I didn't finish college actually. Once I found this, I never did anything else. And and that came up like why didn't you pursue uh, you know, especially, I don't know, with my curiosity, whatever. And and uh and the answer is any pathway forward for me would have taken me away from hands-on work. Whatever the discipline, whatever the pathway, I knew that the thing that I was most passionate about is using my hands to to make a difference. And uh I just was unwilling to pursue anything else that that would take me away from that. All those things are all great, but the thing that's exceedingly rare is someone with the manual skills to truly make a difference. And and as evidenced by the number of people that I see every week when I see a new person and they complain of something they've had for an extended period of time, um, sometimes years, you know, somebody just last week, two years. And and the question I often ask them is in all that time, did anyone actually touch it? And the answer is no. And then it's like, does that seem weird to you? It's like even the patient will say, yeah, you know, like, wow, that is wild. How did we get to a place where we don't even do that in healthcare? Um, and it's it's very difficult. A friend of mine used to teach um manual uh physical medicine, uh physical examination, it's the word I'm looking for at the med school. Um, there's very little interest in it now because the idea is, you know, we're just gonna image it anyway. So what's the point? You know? Um my goodness. Um, you know, like on so many levels and for so many reasons, palpation makes a difference, if nothing else, to validate the experience of the patient. Like, you know, just to say to that person, when you say it hurts, do you mean here or here? Right?

SPEAKER_03:

The look on their face is usually like I don't even know how to describe it. It's just absolute valid validation relief. Like, like I'm not making it up. That's exactly what thinking.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. Yeah, and this is you know, it's interesting. I I think it was last year or earlier this year, it all runs together. But um, I got to, I was the keynote speaker at a conference uh for Oxford University in England, and and it was about validation, that was the topic. And you know, we're lucky because you know, you can talk about validation as this construct and this idea, but when somebody when I can put my finger and replicate somebody's symptoms, very little discussion needs to happen, right? I mean, their brain goes, Oh, like, whoa, right. I mean, I I can't be making this up if this guy can put his finger on it and then recreate the symptoms.

SPEAKER_03:

If I think those things are connected, um massively, it's so valuable for someone's healing journey because then they get out of the loop of I have to try to prove that this pain is real because people are telling me it's not. And like when you can say yes, no, it's very real, and then you replicate it. There, I think that is the opening to the body's ability to heal because it pulls them out of that loop of I'm not crazy, the pain is there, I can feel it. So and I that to me is like ground zero for for building rapport with someone and getting them to heal fast.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I mean, you know, and it you know, rapport is in that case, it's it's very easy, right? Because you've just um acknowledged and replicated what they experience. If I if I try to communicate to you what I'm feeling or that I'm in pain or that I'm struggling with something, I never really know. Like, do you really understand what I'm trying to tell you? But if I put my finger on it and replicate this like weird pain that you feel, there's no question, right? It isn't about gosh, I'm not really sure. The person, that nervous system is very sure that not only is it real, but that I, as a practitioner, can put my finger on it, right? And and that means, yes, I do understand.

SPEAKER_03:

There's something very powerful about touch. And it's um to me, it's interesting because I'm building like this online part of my business. Like it's part of my soul's calling is to bring more meditation and things to people to help heal pain and to help resolve, you know, um, neuroplastic pain and things like that. But the touching, the being in the clinic space with another human being is just the part I'm unwilling to leave behind because I think as a practitioner, I get so much from it. Like for me, I feel so much connection and um humbleness to be with people as they go through the journey of pain and also growth and just absolute profound, like I I don't even know how to describe it, other than like you see miracles and magic in motion when you can get someone out of that state into to a place of hope. And like, like you said, and then also to then feeling good again, like in their bodies and they can live.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's yeah, I think it's an important point. And I I don't want to lose the moment. Um I you know, I just did a podcast a little bit ago uh on bidirectionality. And if I if I'm telling you now that, so I read this really cool research study uh in massage therapy, you immediately you would be thinking, oh, and what did they study? What happened to the person on the table? But I think it would be very interesting, instead of wiring up the person on the table with biomarkers, wire up the therapist. Um, because I think one of the things, one of the untold stories in our profession is how good this profession is for us as therapists, in in so many ways. Um maybe I shouldn't say this, but so so many times in my practice, I will uh come inside the the door into my clinic room, close the door, and put both hands on the door and tell my client, I'm so happy you're here, you know, and this is totally about me. Because once I close that door, nobody can get to me, right? Like all the world, it's all out there, and it's just you and I. And now here we go, right? And what a gift, right? Yeah, and then that total focus to do the work well demands your absolute complete focus on that person, and which also means all the stuff, right? The world and whatever is going on in your head has to exit the room, and it is the holy space of anything else, anything about me in that room is getting in the way of being fully present for that person, and um, I just relish that. And um, and I think it it's something that we don't talk about enough. And I do think if we had a research study that we wired up the therapist with the uh a multitude of biomarkers, I think you'd see how beneficial that is. And that's at one level.

SPEAKER_03:

Sorry to continue, but no, that's actually like have you read Lynn McTaggart's work, The Power of Eight? They have they had one person in the center of a healing circle and eight around them, setting the intention for the person in the center of the circle to heal. Guess who got more healing? It was the people setting the intention, yeah, sending the energy, not the person receiving it. So it that that just goes along there. I believe she did do research on it. I'd have to look it up. I could send it if I find it. But um, they have researched that the people who who actually facilitate receive some kind of benefit in return that is immeasurable, in my opinion. Uh, because you're absolutely right, to be present with someone and to have the honor. I always think of it like an honor to walk someone through the journey of recovery is to me just like an absolute gift.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And it is um just to be with someone else and um, you know a couple of things. One to to that point and personally and professionally, in terms of being honored, anybody who's done this long enough, you must have at some point attended the memorial service for a long time client. And if you sit in that room and you look around, you realize that you knew them in a way that no one in that room knew them. And almost everything you know, in that case, you can't tell anybody, right? But you know deep in your heart that that person shared um parts of them that they shared with no one else. Oh my gosh, what an amazing thing. And and also for us as people, you cannot be in relationship with people in that deep way for so long and not be changed yourself in that process as well. All right. And um, so for me to see so many people who struggle with pain and to see the courage, to see their strength in that process, um, it, you know, those those are people who inspire me to to deal with you know things in my life because I've seen how other people have done that in there. So I I do feel it's a deep honor to be with them.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah. I I think of one uh client of mine in particular. I was I went, she called me when on her deathbed and asked me to come and to watch her die gracefully and to get to be a part of it and to help ease her pain. And just it it was, I realized we had something unique that nobody else there had because we we did three sessions a week. So, like, you know, we were close in a way. I don't know if you get to be that intimate with most people in your life.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, I think not.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it is a beautiful gift.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So it's uh it's a wonderful thing. And I think it's just one of the many stories about the work itself that I think doesn't get expressed enough. And I think those of us who have done it for a long time, you know, to convey that to other people, like that's part of the richness of the work itself. It's the richness is in the relationship.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, oh, so much so. That's so true. I it was funny because I was losing um some of that appreciation for that, and I was taking a loamy loamy class because I wanted to do something easy and flowy, and I was like, I just want to do something different. And there was an executive from eBay there, and I looked at Daniel, who was one of my colleagues, and I said, We have his dream job, Daniel. Like we have this man is like envious of our career, and he is like, he was like exec at eBay, and I'm like, we don't appreciate what we get to do for a living enough. Like that it was a big reset for me. Um and recalibration of appreciation of what we get to do.

SPEAKER_00:

So very cool.

SPEAKER_03:

I can relate to that experience. It was like, oh man, there's people who I remember dreaming about being a massage therapist when I worked in the back end of the school, going, oh, I should go back to school and get my license in the States because I trained in England. And I was like, I should I but it I was putting it off and I was like, yeah, I didn't um I think you it you do, you get into like running the business or the other side of things, and then you forget to slow down and just appreciate the gifts of it that we get to experience. So I love that reminder. And I hope all new massage therapists or anyone considering going into the field, because I talk to a lot of people who want to go into healthcare, and I'm like, how have you considered massage? Like, I actually think that there's a huge demand for it. Um, especially well-trained and committed massage therapists, I think that they're needed right now in the world more than ever, anytime, because we have this epidemic of pain that just is not resolving. And I feel like we have an important role to play in that conversation and in the process of helping get people out of pain it very affordably as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You know, it um on so many levels. Um a while ago, um I had the opportunity to represent this field at a national conference. And and honestly, I mean the heads of uh United Healthcare, Blue Cross Blue Shield, the BA, like I mean the who's who of healthcare was all sitting at the table. And and based on my history, um, you know, uh in those early years, I always felt like I had to defend the work and make the case for the. So, of course, in this high pressure environment, I'm thinking, I'm gonna wear that, you know, I'm gonna bring that flag, and by God, I'm gonna, and I've got I'm armed with all this, you know, research. And boy, how ridiculous was that. Because um what I heard from all those people from the get-go is when should we, how should we, um, in what context, uh, for what conditions, never should we even consider massage there? That wasn't in the conversation at all. It just looped right over that. And I thought, I I think I'm gonna put the flag away and try to hide it. Um, I feel really embarrassed, and I'll probably put the armor and take that off. And uh, like, wow, that's where we have come as a profession. Um, and I see that in my own community. You know, I'm my community is 120,000 people. Um but um we see a significant percentage of the community. The number of physician referrals we got is really impressive. And um so and and and again, um to for a massage therapist to be recognized by the university, um, you know, and multiple things, um, I've never seen the public acceptance the way it is. I've never seen the medical acceptance uh in that world, the healthcare acceptance. So the the thing that I worry about is all those things are true. And and we know the if you look at the data, um, you know, the incidence of musculoskeletal pain, 123% in the last 30 years, projected another 115 in the next 30 years, increasing constantly. The thing I would say to our own profession is, are we ready for this? And and I I think the answer is I don't think so. Um because the time is now, our moment is now, now is the time to step forward into that space to really serve in in in a meaningful way like has never been possible before. The windows open, but are are we ready to to go through that? Yeah, I don't know. Uh I I have my doubts, but um, we'll see.

SPEAKER_03:

I have I have my doubts. I I um it's funny because people will say to me, I would never have known that you were here if my friend hadn't have told me. And it took them a lot of convincing to get me to come here. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not really good at marketing because I'm just very referral-based. And I don't want to get overwhelmed with massage clients because I'm trying to build out my uh online revenue stream and just things that I've been trying, like developing in um the mind body world. And um it's it's interesting because I then I think I it is my responsibility actually to start communicating more clearly to people what's possible. Um, that's less expensive and more effective. Like um, you know, especially because people come in and I hear them all over the place complaining about the cost of healthcare and co-pays. And I'll say, well, you know, you could treat this for like three visits with me. It'll cost you less than$500, or you could continue to pay$20,000 a year in co-pays or whatever and still continue to be in pain. But getting them to understand that is really challenging because the healthcare thing is so embedded in their minds where it's like, well, if it's not covered by insurance, because we don't work with health insurance, um, then I won't, then it must not be effective, or you know, I can't do it's something, you know. And I've had people come in and they said, my doctor wouldn't treat this, even though this was the cause of this, because it wasn't coded correctly. And I'm like, when did we get to that place in healthcare where if the code isn't matching, we're not treating the root cause of the problem? Like it just didn't make sense to me. And it's funny because I really was questioning if it's a fight or a battle I really wanted to be in the arena of. Because it just seemed um maybe like when I wasn't really didn't have the fire to fight like until I talked to you. And then I'm like, oh no, maybe I could find the fire on that one. I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

But you know, when we at our clinic, um, I think we saw last year 18,000 sessions, something like that. That doesn't include that's only in the office stuff. That doesn't include our work with um the university and athletes and stuff like that. So we're seeing a ton of sessions, right? Um, we do almost no marketing um per se. Um our our marketing strategy is based around one thing, two words really get results. You know?

SPEAKER_03:

Um you taught me that when I first started my business. You said best marketing, you said those that exact thing, and I've I've followed that rule um ever since I opened my clinic. And I for myself haven't had to do a lot of marketing until I brought people in and then I had to market them. And I was like, oh, now I have to learn other marketing. But um, but yeah, that was always my philosophy. Thanks to you. And I think that that's true for most businesses, but um really good advice.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's it's important. I mean, everything else, I mean I I I one gets tired of clever arguments and flashy things and loud voices. Um, none of that impresses me. What impresses me most is somebody who can just deliver the goods, you know? And and if you do that consistently, believe me, especially in the world of pain, where so many people know somebody else who's also struggling with something similar that they have, um, that word spreads really fast.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, yeah. Uh most people who find me, they're like, I was at a party and I was complaining about my back, and this guy walked up to me and he goes, I got a girl. I got a caller. So it's um yeah, they're yeah, anytime someone sees pain, then they're like, they think they think of me.

SPEAKER_01:

Like I would have been known for that. Like, yeah, well, actually, that's that's unfortunately. One guy said to me this was uh like uh I don't know, a few a few years ago, but he said, So you've been in town a long time, right? I'm like, yeah. And and and it was a uh sciatic issue, and he said, So you treat a lot of this? And like, he yeah. He said, Did you ever think that for so many people in this town, the when the moment they have a pain in the butt, you're the first name that comes to mind. It's like, you know, I've never thought about it that way, and I I'm happy not to think about it in that way anymore. Um, it's a pretty funny turn on that.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, that's hilarious. Professional pain in the butt solver. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. It's first first thought that comes up like, wait a minute, I don't know, hold on there.

SPEAKER_03:

So yeah, that is, yep, nope, that's true. Anytime, like someone I see somebody, it's hard to be someone who can see pain everywhere and exist. Like I go to the gym and I'm just like, I can't, I can't look. I'm gonna I'm gonna stand around. No, and it's hard for me to keep my mouth shut and not be like, I could help you with that knee pain and take me 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, yeah, hard to watch, but it's difficult now. I you know, I find myself being very um kind of under the radar just because you know, practice is so overwhelmed. And and and really we have 22 therapists, and they're all just it's very difficult because there are so many people who need our services, but we just you know, we can barely handle what we have in front of us. And but that you know, that's another thing, just the the thing of going the transition from being an individual practitioner to then, you know, my own office grew in a I I started it in 1982 here in Champaign, and it grew in a very just organic way. Um, there was never a five-year plan. Uh, it just kept adding more people and more people and more people. And um, and you know, it's interesting how that's developed now. And and also it it's also interesting as we began to more clearly define and we're always moving toward a more perfect union, uh, you know, like who are we really and where do we fit in the you know, the ecosystem of of our community? And also, as there are other practitioners out there who are also massage therapists, there are so many different ways to practice, and you know, they're all valid as long as it's the right thing for the right reason at the right time, done in the right way. Uh, other than that, it's pretty straight ahead.

SPEAKER_03:

That is the best. I I want to talk about that for a minute because people will come in all the time, and I'm like, if you use the wrong process on the on the right process. It's not gonna work. Like it's or the right process on the wrong problem. It's just not gonna work. I had a lady come in from Hawaii and she had plantar fasciitis. I was like, can I look at that for you? She goes, Oh no, I've been getting it treated for 15 years, it's not solvable. And I'm like, can I just take a different look? And it wasn't a plantar fasciitis history, it was with her big toe. And I thought, I was so grateful for you. And uh she had some trigger points in her tibialis posterior. And she goes, How did you do that? And I was like, There are many things that have the same symptoms that if you do one solution for it, it's actually going to make it worse. You cannot count on Dr. YouTube. It does not work. Like you have to have someone who knows how to look at the nuances of the thing that you're struggling with to give you the right solution and the right process. Otherwise, you could be making it worse. And then the person thinks that they're just forever stuck in pain. And I think that that's that's the danger of claiming that yours is the only solution for any practitioner, is that you know, then if it doesn't work for the way that their problem is structured, then then they lose hope in having it be solved. Or it's that they say, well, massage doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, exactly. And I was just gonna say to to the first thing, any number times zero is still not still zero, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So but but in the second thing, the where we uh uh excel, I think in some ways, is people who've who've done kind of other things in the kind of traditional medical thing and then are willing to just, you know, maybe by reputation or or talk to somebody, come to see us. The one population that we probably don't see are people who've seen another massage therapist because in their head they think, I tried that and it didn't work. You know, it's like that door is now closed because they feel like, well, that you know, listen, that's not gonna help. I already did that, which is kind of like saying, you know, I ate a salad once, I didn't lose any weight. So, you know, like what?

SPEAKER_03:

I love that analogy, that's fabulous.

SPEAKER_01:

It's really hard to convince them that you may, but I don't know what that person did. And and I'm pretty sure if you tell me more, uh I'll we'll find out, but uh I'm pretty sure that's not what we're gonna do. And um, and so you know, and again, it's very difficult um to describe for for me when I describe this work, you know, uh because you know, you don't want to sound like, oh, this is better than other. It's not better, it's just it's just different. It's the level of specificity that's not always done. And and again, it's not appropriate for everything and every circumstance for God, you know, like we serve uh, you know, the subset of people who have this specific needs that we can address, right? But we should do that in a really good way. The problem is when when something that is is probably not gonna help, let's say, you know, plant our pain, and you know, they've had more general stuff or whatever, it's like, and then they think, well, you know, that door's over. It's like, no, not really. It's hard to it's hard to make that case.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I I just got a message from someone I treated on a Zoom call. I showed her how to do it on Zoom, and she said, my tendonitis has been gone, and it would that was like 15 years ago ever since then. And she'd been to so many specialists. And I I just felt like, I don't think I I do think our work, I don't know if it's better, I'll say is the most effective, is what I like to call it. Like it's just very effective for pain and and people who want to be out of pain.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Like that's you know, and again, you know, there are there are so many reasons that people might seek massage, right? You've you've worked like a ton of hours, you're exhausted, you're whatever. You know, that might be a different thing. So again, it's always the right approach for the right reason. Yeah, but I think the thing that we excel at is the decision-making process of the with there are many approaches, right? The wisdom is in the choosing. Like, how do you choose this versus that? And and can you articulate it? And how do you know you're on the right road? But more importantly, how do you know you're on the wrong road? Um, that's more important. You know, it's it's one of the things that I learned when I was uh deep into the research side of things and president of the foundation and that kind of stuff is you know, the goal of research isn't to verify, it's to falsify. And so for me, when I'm treating something and uh a person has anterior shoulder pain, and I think, oh, I think it could be once I think I know what it is, I will work quite hard at trying to prove myself wrong. And if I can't prove myself wrong, I I actually might be right. If I try to prove myself, if I try to prove myself right, I find my I have no trouble doing that, you know. But that's the problem. But like we can all find a way to prove ourselves right, but um it's more important to see, like, well, if that was true, what about this? What about that? And sometimes I'll do that with a client. You know, I'll find something that is they think, oh my gosh, that's the place. And I think, well, that fits everything that I'm thinking, and that's the model I'm coming from. And then I'll move off of that and say, what about this? Like, no, well, how about that? No, how about this? And like, you know, you seem lost because you were on it before, but now you seem lost. Like, thank you for saying that, because uh, I was actually just trying to deceive you a little bit. Does because if the person says, Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, now what I know is none of that stuff was true, and uh, you know, I'm I'm lost without any kind of GPS system. But but if they can tell me, nah, like, mm-hmm not good, now now I'm probably right. And I so I think that's a really important thing. And I and you have to be willing to be proven wrong. That's the thing. You have to be willing to fail. And and that's the thing, Tabitha, so much about feedback. You know, the best way not to get feedback is don't ask. Yeah, but how dumb is that? And um, I I think that's that is uh it so that's we always find ourselves checking in with people, even to the, you know what I'm doing? Is that the kind of thing you were hoping for? Oh people say, you know, I I get that this approach could be really effective, but this isn't something I'm interested in. It's like totally get it. You know, it's all good. And let's see if we can get you to the right kind of thing that would really resonate with you.

SPEAKER_03:

I have to ask people that a lot because I'm like, whoever sent you in, did they tell you what I do? Or were you thinking this was kind of like something you saw on TV?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03:

They're like, no, they just said you did something different. I'm like, okay, good. So are you looking for flow and relaxation and being naked, or are you ready to get out of pain? Let me know because I want to make sure I have your expectations clear. I'm like, if it's both, I might be able to help you, but it won't be as effective. So I just want to be clear about that so that you you know that going forward. So that having those conversations with people, setting expectations and also getting their expectation is so important. I think not. I've seen cut plate people, they run in and run out of the treatment room. And I'm like, how did you even find out what was going on for them enough to like create a treatment plan or to be very thorough with it? You barely even ask their name. Like you've got to like talk to them and say, you know, you're having low back pain. That doesn't mean you're gonna lay on your belly and get undressed. What if they have the set pain? That might make that, that might make it worse. Like we have to think and like really educate or you taught me that, like to think and really think about the client and their lack of knowledge about their own body and go, okay, how much education am I gonna have to give them so that they know there's a different way? Because if they've ever tried massage, they might have gone in and it's like, okay, great, go ahead and get undressed. You're gonna lay face down under the blanket. You could say the speech like an airline stewardess, right? Like uh it's very rhythmic. And to like stop people and say, I actually need you to sit down for a minute because I'm gonna have a conversation with you first. They almost get a little shocked because they're like, Oh, but we're gonna run out of time. I'm like, no, no, I I built plenty of time into our session.

SPEAKER_00:

So we're good.

SPEAKER_03:

I want to hear about what you want to do when you're not hurting. And also I want to know about um, you know, what you're where it's coming up for you, what is getting in the way of, what can't you do? Yeah. And um, give me the details because I want to hear them. You're not whining, you're not complaining. I need to hear those complaints because the can the details help me understand what's what's going on for you.

SPEAKER_01:

So you know, one of the memory that comes up for me, this was years ago, but I'll never forget it. Uh, asking this young man questions, and he said, Can we just cut the charade?

SPEAKER_00:

What?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's what I thought. Like, I'm what? And he said, Can we just cut the charade? I said, What what do you what do you mean by charade? And he said, um, I've been to a bunch of people, you know, a bunch of different kinds of practitioners, and also in your field, everybody asks these questions, and then they do whatever the hell they were gonna do anyway. So let's just cut the charade and why don't you just treat me and let's just see if it works. You know what? He's right.

SPEAKER_03:

He was right.

SPEAKER_01:

He is exactly right. You know, oftentimes when people ask those questions, they don't do anything with the information, they do what they were gonna do anyway. He's exactly right. Yeah, and I remember just being stunned and then telling him, you know, this in a way is not gonna go well for you because I'm gonna ask a question, but every time you answer my question, I'm gonna tell you what it means to me, what it implicates, and what it takes away. And and at that point, he just looked like pain, like, oh, I'm so sorry I said anything, you know, like this is gonna slow it down. And and uh, but you know, that's what I did like, oh, so when you say it hurts when you, but not when you to me that means uh and then at one point we were doing some work, and you know, there just there was no talking or anything, and we're probably 10 or 10 minutes into the session, and he starts laughing. And I was thinking, I'm Norwegian, we're not funny, like what? And uh I said, what about this is funny? And he said, you know, for all the people I've seen, this is the first time that somebody actually did what I asked them to do, you know, like that I had some agency in the session. I mean, the whole process was just gut-wrenching, and I and we need to listen to that young man. Uh and you know, so uh what I tell people is don't ask any question that you're not gonna do something with the information. If you're gonna do whatever you do, yeah, you know, get their name and then just do what you do and hope for the best. For me personally, I think clients deserve more than that. But you know, we don't have like this checklist of stuff like that we just kind of go through the motions. Like, if I ask a question, it has meaning to me and it will direct treatment. And and I want the client to know that and experience that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's I like it's interesting because as you're saying that, I'm like, yeah, when I'm asking questions in my brain, I actually have a like a treatment plan that I'm creating and I'm just doing it so quickly that like I've gotten really fast at it. But like I am formulating a treatment plan as they're as I'm asking the questions. And exactly then I pull from that as I'm working on them. And um I never unless someone, and it's not very common anymore, comes in and they say, I just want to relax. Um I'm usually put them with someone else because I like to use my time for people who have more complex pain. But um, it's interesting because I'm like, uh I don't know if everyone does that. You're right. I I think I have had a lot of work on people where they just go into their routine and their flow instead of really thinking about the pain the person's having.

SPEAKER_01:

And you know, the problem with that for me is that um when people I I think it's not very enriching for the therapist when you're just doing the same thing over and over again. It's it's um it would, you know, for me, it it would be like um it's so mindless in a way. Like I, you know, I I was gonna say like telling the same story over and over again, but that's that's not really true. Um because um, so I'm looking over there at my cello, and uh for the last six years, um I've been you know studying the cello. And um Yo Yo Ma started playing the Bach cello suites, the prelude when he was like four years old. And and now at my age, 69, uh he is still playing the Bach cello suites, right? It's the same story, but the 69-year-old sounds very different, brings a different, you know, uh background than the six-year-old, then the the 23-year-old, then the 43-year-old, then the 50-year-old. You know, it's the same thing, but through that, you know, it's the same way. I I'm still putting my hands on people in the same way I did when I was 23. But it's not the same because I bring something very different to that. And and it's um, it's the the wisdom, the background, not just the the surface thing. So to skate over the surface of that, to me to me, Tabit, that's a little bit like being at the ocean and day after day, and you look at it and you go, Oh, it's really pretty. Oh, that's right. And then someone goes, Oh, for God's sakes, and they put a mask on your face, shove your head in the water, and then you see, holy, that it's like a world under there, right? All of which I didn't see because I was just looking at the surface. But the Einstein said it best infinity is not a line extending through the heavens, but the variations at any one point in the line, it's always about depth, not about verticality and horizontal thing.

SPEAKER_03:

I would agree with that because I can tell that the more depth I've brought into like just being humble with my own process. And as I've been working on integrating more mind, mind mindfulness practices within the work that I do, I have studied like NLP and and how we can break certain habitual patterns of pain in the in the brain and migraines. I've been working with people with migraines and using like a combination of hypnotherapy, NLP, and then what we do to break these like lifelong migraine patterns. And I'm like, this is like taking this, it required a tremendous amount of humility, a lot of failure and humbleness and also um curiosity, all of which I learned from you. But um to go deep with someone like like that and say, let me, let's just walk on this path together, like you're still doing a lot of the same maneuvers, but you're you're having to go to a new level of vulnerability with yourself, with your inner wisdom, right? And then also with the amount of you know, education that you've obtained. And sometimes I think like I forget how much studying was required to get to where where you are, your constant learner, right? I'm a constant learner. I get bored otherwise. Like I would, I wouldn't be able to just flow on a body all day long and not have any kind of attainable result with someone. Like I want, I have that need for depth in my work. Like, and I would not be able to have a career where I didn't have depth in the amount of change that I could create for with a human. I don't say for, I'm just, I'm just there to remind them of what they were their body already knew how to do. So I always say I'm just the, I'm just the I'm just the facilitator. I'm just reminding your body what it already knows how to do. So um, whether it's in the mind or, you know, in the emotional body or in the physical body, that's just what I do. So um it's not magic, it's commitment to education, never being afraid to fail, um, to get things wrong. And then just I think one of the things that clients always say is that your ferocious commitment to the outcome and you know, just not being afraid to like call in other practitioners or, you know, whoever else is needed, um, so that the person gets the quality of care that they need and the the results.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um I think that what do you because I think I've seen a lot of therapists like hoard knowledge in in some clinics, or I've heard that. What because you're not your clinic is 100% not like that. How do you and my clinic is not like that? We're very much givers gain. Like we have our unique gifts and we make sure that you know clients know who the best therapist is for them. And then we have like a network of other professionals that we refer out to. How do you build that culture in your clinic? Because that's a very um, I don't think all businesses operate that way. Like, how do you how did you build that?

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a it's a really good question. How you create culture, right? And sustain that. Um, you know, I think the North Star is always what is best for that person, you know, and that person meeting the client. Um, how do we best serve that person? And are we the best, you know, resource for that? And when I say we, even inside our office, right, it's like, well, who's the best person for that person to see? Um I think at some point you have to demonstrate to the the stakeholders, you know, and all of that, that that uh everyone benefits from that kind of mindset. Um and I think so there there's a little bit of a leap of faith that happens in that. But I I think once you do, you realize that um then you get this kind of team approach. And I think one of the things that certainly we are star for uh in this culture is belonging and a sense of community and commitment. And so I think with the office, you know, with with that uh, you know, having a sense of this is who we are as a people and as an organization, as a business, um, and people feeling like they're proud to be part of that, that's a really important thing. And um, you know, what really when you look at the data just nationally, if if we're also hyper connected, you know, through the through social media and all that sort of stuff, then why is the data on loneliness just jaw-dropping? You know, like how is that even possible? Something is really wrong. And um, so to create a culture of connectedness and um and shared purpose and meaning is a really important thing.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, I love that. Yeah, it's um it's really interesting because I've talked to a lot of practitioners and they're like, why do you have people work with you at your clinic? Like, I'm because I can't imagine riding in the boat alone. Like I even from the first day I opened the clinic, I never envisioned it being one person. Like to me, that felt like such a lonely path. And and I think a lot of practitioners go solo and they're they don't either know how to collaborate with others or they're I don't know what it is, but um, I find that when I went through some of the worst days of my life, it was so beautiful to have them hold up the clinic and to do things that I couldn't do because I had a brain injury and I wasn't making great choices. And it was nice to have someone, you know, do do the backup and be like, nope, that's not a good idea. Um, and then, you know, when they've lost family members, you know, we step in and we help each other, like we call their clients and we make sure that everyone's taken care of. And and I think in a community um of that kind of support, we also support each other's growth. And, you know, there's a it was interesting. Daniel was working on someone one day, and when she walked out, I could tell her pelvic was still tilted because of how she was walking. And that, and we have such rapport. I said, Daniel, do you mind if I just show you how to treat this one thing? I don't think we've you've learned it before. And he was so grateful, she was so grateful. She said, I have had that pain for 25 years and nobody has found it. And um, Daniel was like, Thank you for showing that to me. I had another therapist who didn't last at our clinic, very similar situation. I'm always very humble when I like kind of like go in and I could just see, you know, something got missed. And I, you know, I everyone knows it's never an ego thing for me. It's always what's best for the client. And she was furious. She quit, she left because she felt very humiliated. And then like, I know myself and I know how I approached that. I know I didn't do it from that stance. And it was hard to have someone like that where ego was blocking growth or what was best for the client. And and I'm much care more careful about who we bring in now to make sure that they like, even if I'm not doing something right, or anyone's like, you know, not in alignment that we have we catch it for each other.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Two thoughts. One one of which is uh in the data in the psych world, um, if you practice in a group setting or if you practice individually, your outcomes, I forget the percentage, but it was significant. You are significantly more effective in a group setting. And and the reason is exactly what you just said, um, you know, even in our clinic, a lot of it happens when you're washing your hands, you know, like, oh, I just saw someone who, and man, I cannot figure that out. And then I hear all these conversations of people like, like, well, I don't know, did you ever think about uh but if you're by yourself, you know, it's like it's really hard to have that conversation by yourself. And and you know, you you just never get the input from another another source or another pair of eyes to do that. And the second thing is um it also is about that culture and defining who you are, so that person, for instance, who was with you does not fit the kind of culture that you, you know, you want to have. You know, we just had somebody who looked at, you know, wanting to join our practice, but you know, she happened to be here at a time when we were doing an advanced training and she saw really where the bus is going. And she said, you know, that doesn't really resonate with the work that I love and the way I can best do this. Like, thank you for saying that. That's awesome, you know, and and and here's another environment in our community that I think you might thrive, and they would love to have you. And that's where she is now, you know. So, you know, when you're clear about who you are, what you do, and why you do it, then then you draw people to that. And conversely, uh, you know, the the people who don't fit in that thing, you're not gonna make that alignment happen. Um I'm gonna go back to the cello. Yeah. And I'm no, I'm not gonna play because then you'll just want to turn the recording off. Uh, are you kidding?

SPEAKER_03:

I love listening to your cello at your dinner parties. It's one of the things I miss most about level two. In fact, I was like, I need to come to Champagne again.

SPEAKER_01:

So the way you know that you're in tune is if you are playing a note and then the other strings begin to vibrate, right? That that's resonance. But you know, I I thought the other day when I was doing that, that you know what? I look for resonance in every part of my life, you know, it's in the cello, it's in it, you know, does it resonances that connection with another person? Resonances, you know, the business. If we're all, you know, in alignment, you just feel that like energy that just compounds itself, and it's more than just the one thing that's happening, it's vibrating at multiple levels. That's you know, it's it's the overtones that matter, and that tells you you really are in tune.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, I love that. Yeah, it's um it's it is an interesting thing to be the like the leader of the the ship and making sure that that stays intact because I think it's like that's one way thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh yeah, I mean, uh leadership is uh it's not easy.

SPEAKER_03:

I have been resisting it, and my soul has been saying, no, it's time for you to be in more of a leadership role, stop resisting it. And um, I've been getting a lot of spiritual lessons on that path lately, and um finally surrendering and going, Okay, I I hear you. I'm gonna start embodying a more of a leadership role. And I think sometimes that means being more vulnerable and you know, speaking about things that people will wholeheartedly disagree with and still, you know, operating from a place of love and respect for all people. And so it, yeah, it is interesting. Um, the challenge of like even wanting to be more public, uh, you know, even on social media and provide people with a different angle on what massage is and pain and how we can we can do better. And um it I think you said it on a the call the other day where the the trolls will will troll you and and they're not the people in the in the arena with the the clients, they're not in practice with people and they're just sitting in quiet judgment. And I thought, oh, and they're the ones who have the loudest voice, and the people who probably have a lot of wisdom tend to hide because they don't want to be, they don't want to be in the battle, in the arena, I guess is the word.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, and uh, you know, again, you know, then then it's the is that an arena worth being in? Like, you know, like uh, you know, uh I again I'll go back to Athens and the Athenian trap where you know people just savored the love of the argument and and you know, like I have zero interest in that, you know. Um, but if you can show me that, you know, you are consistently delivering really great results in your clinic, I want to know what the heck you're doing. But if it's if it's about you know just sitting behind the keyboard and and and trying to impress people with the cleverness of your arguments, um I, you know, I am too old for that. Uh, you know, like really uh because clients do not care how clever you think you are. What they care about is can you deliver the goods or not? Yeah, and and to that end, you know, like you can be this wonderful caring therapist, and people will appreciate that, and then they will disappear, right? Because they're you know, boy, she is so wonderful. But but I I still hurt, right? Um and and all of those things you can care, you can be whatever, you can in the end, uh you have to deliver results, and and honestly, that's what it's about. And and if we just keep working at what is the best way to do that, you know, and sustain it, then those things are of interest to me. But just uh the entertaining oneself, uh, you know, doing these things, uh little interest, you know. I have zero not little interest, zero interest.

SPEAKER_03:

I am not competitive, I have zero interest in um proving myself to other people. I just like to get results for people because I care.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm competitive, but if you're gonna be competitive, you ought to compete in the things that actually matter, right? So, you know, it's like you know, what it's like I'm sure you've had conversations with someone, and then you realize there is no point to this, right? Like I am wasting my time, and then you're just like, okay, and whatever, and you walk away. So again, you know, energy idea, it's finite, right? And you have to think, what is the best use of my time right now? And what really matters that I can walk away feeling like I made a difference, and uh just just incestuous arguing about what I yeah, that does not in any way feel like I made a difference in the world because it never stops.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, no, I never engage in those arguments anymore. I'm I'm more just like, well, this is what I can do, and this is what I studied, and this is how I got here. So um, and this is my mission in life. So I think. When you understand like kind of who you are on a bigger scale or what you come here to do and you're connected with your purpose, I feel like that is my North Star. Like, and I'm not always excited about it because I'm always like, I don't know if I want to, you know, do the things my soul kind of like is pulling me towards. But then, you know, it has never been a bad result. Like it led me, you know, to the path of opening a wellness center that I am very I love and I love that we've helped over 10,000 people in our community. Like it, I mean, that's huge. Like when you think about it, it's like what a a legacy. And I I hope other people get to experience that. And I always try to dissuade people from the four-year university like you. I did not go either. And I always thought that was a hindrance. And later to find out it actually was a benefit because I had the ability to be so more, much more open to kind of the path of learning bodywork and not having this kind of like closed framework about how it had to be. And it was more like kind of it just organically grew into what it was supposed to be. And um, I think because I had that curiosity and openness about learning the the next thing that like a client would inevitably come in and I would have to learn how to treat that next. And then it would always make me a better therapist because I didn't have a closed mindset about how it needed to be. And um, I think that's actually one of the benefits of massage therapy when you find someone who's really committed to the craft and like also committed to patient care is that you you are always questioning is this still right? Is this still accurate? Is there a better way that I don't know yet? And then you start finding the solutions, I think, when you ask better questions.

SPEAKER_01:

You bet. And so in the end, you know, it helps us grow professionally, but also personally, right? And so, um, and I think that's the hallmark of this is that you get to grow in both domains, you know, and as a person, um, it it teaches you deep lessons um on so many levels, and then you know, professionally as well, to know that you're of service um and have made a difference in many lives. That's a really, really powerful thing to fall back on and and uh just know deep in your heart that um yeah, in the end, uh what what do you look back on? It's the lives you touch for the lives you made a difference with.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's that's the thing that that when I don't want to do the things, I that's the thing that gets me going. As then I just connect in with being of service um and helping people. Um that is what keeps me going every day, and I love it because that's that's what energizes me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's the why, right? And and I think that's the difference between having uh having a um a goal and having a mission.

SPEAKER_02:

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. When when when the winds will blow, and the winds will always blow, the storms will come. Sometimes it's a typhoon. Um you just have to like uh if you fall back on the mission, you'll hang in there through it. If you just have goals of things you wanted to achieve, yeah, the yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

What are we doing today? How are we bringing that into the world? And then that's what gets me going. Traditional goal setting does not work for me because I'm a very mission-oriented person, but yeah. Um so for I know we have to probably go soon. So I'm what if you were to think about like new or uh, you know, actually, I want to talk to the people in burnout because I think we lost a lot of really qualified therapists because of COVID. I actually almost lost my clinic and um had to take on a considerable amount of challenges to keep it going. And, you know, the love of the work that we do is what my mission actually is kind of what kept it alive. How do you what do you tell people who are in that phase of their career where they're like, I think I should go do something new? Or is this really for me anymore? I'm bored or like I'm getting injured, or um, you know, what is massage therapy injury is hugely likely if you're doing it like in a way that's not of service to your body. So how do you have a long career in it?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Through the burnout is the r is the real question.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think it's uh an attitude of endless discovery. And I usually when you're burning out a plateau kind of thing, it's about um it's really about lack of growth. You feel like you're just you've hit a level and you're just going through the motions, as we talked about before. You need to do something to jolt yourself out of that. Um, and it it always involves a new challenge, a new something, a new way of looking at things. Um and and I I I feel like it, you know, it's interesting with with so many people to you know, over the years to help them see like it's the same thing, but seen in a different way. Um, like I said earlier, like a piece of music. When I sit with um a friend of mine who has a PhD in composition, you know, and I listen to some piece of music, some symphony or something, and I was like, oh, that's really pretty, but I've heard this before. And then he says, Do you understand that? And then all of a sudden it's like, are you kidding? Like, like suddenly I hear and see the same thing that I've heard so many times, but I never understood what it actually meant. And um and the same is true with anatomy and um with our you know, treatment of people. The danger is Einstein said about us, what holds us back isn't what we don't know, it's what we think we know. And you're never curious about things you think you understand. And so somehow you have to have this little awareness that, like, holy crap, there's stuff I don't know. And it's really hard to be to have burnout about like a whole set of challenges that are in front of you, especially if you loved it in the first place, right? And you know, it's a little bit like if if your relationship is getting stale, you know, with your significant other, right? You don't go, well, I'm gonna look for somebody else, you know, there's more interesting, right? Like really you're gonna start all over again. You're just like you you're not listening to that person, and and there's a whole place of discovery that will takes a lifetime because that moment, that person, and you are not the same that day as the next day, right? So who are you today? All right, um, instead of saying, I know I know, you know, like um at some point in the end of your life, right? People are like, oh my gosh, I wish I would have paid more attention. You know, and I and you have, I have been with people at the end of their life, and uh and what they felt like they didn't need more stuff. They didn't need more, they just wish they would have been there and fully experienced you know, the things that they already had. Yeah. So let's not make that same mistake, right? Let's learn from those people and do it now, uh, because at some point it is too late. And so that in front of my uh in my office, I have the scroll that I brought back from Japan, Ichigo Ichi, which is a famous scroll from Japan that says, every opportunity for service is an opportunity never to return. But it it came in the days of the samurai priests, where this, you know, you would be, you know, uh out back at your house, and all of a sudden this priest would come up and just beg for a bowl of rice. And and the thing was that person, you will never see them again in the rest of your life. This is that moment to savor that moment because it will never happen again. And honestly, this interview, you and I, this connection, just will never happen again, right? And and you know, so well, I hope it happens again. Yeah, yeah, but not in this way, not in right. And so so I think once you do that, it's really burnout is lack of paying attention. And and sometimes it takes someone just to peel back the depths of of whatever activity it is, and sometimes it's your whole life, right? That you realize, oh my goodness, there's so much to save her.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think that is the wisdom of midlife, like and beyond. Like it's that like, oh gosh, everything is so much more beautiful than I realized. And like every day when I walk into some, I'm I'm I'm almost just like I'm filled with appreciation that that's like this place where I get to spend my day. And I just like I feel so much gratitude, and I think that brings me into a state of presence, and um I think that's what keeps me out of burnout, and it's that state of just gratitude for getting to do this work and loving something so much, like that. I don't think people get to experience in their careers like a lot, a lot of people. And I think that if I could gift anyone that joy of getting to be of service and making money doing it at the same time and having an impact, I mean it's worth the struggle and the hard days and the challenges that a business goes through. Like it's it's worth it to just be with that feeling.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And and again, if you love something and if you love something, that also means you have to care for it, right? And and in our field, caring for it is learning, right? And and doing doing the hard work of the all that it takes to be a really great therapist. And um, and that is uh endless learning uh to be of of the best possible service.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. It is, and that's uh self-care and boundaries with clients and you know, really getting clear on who you enjoy working with and who you shouldn't be working with. And those are things that were really important because in the beginning you always take on all the clients because you're you just want money or experience. And then I think your your craft starts to get a little bit more fine-tuned and you can be a little more picky about, you know, I actually have really strong boundaries, and I don't let people treat us like that in our clinic. And actually, you don't get to do that here. And and you know, being someone who is an advocate for the people who work for you, that's actually that's a skill I didn't know I was gonna have to develop. And and um I actually like that about about me that I'm not afraid to like hold the space for, you know, or to be the person who protects the the clinicians that work for me too from people who are not in that great, you know, space.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's what leaders do.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02:

All right.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you. And I just want to say that it's it's very much because you show up and do your work that I show up and do my work and and you have really inspired me. And you know, everyone who comes through my clinic is grateful that you followed your path and not playing the cello or the the guitar. Everyone that uh every the hundreds of thousands of people probably that you've touched on the planet vicariously through the people you have trained are grateful that you pursued this instead of.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03:

So thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it's a special community of uh people. And um, you know, for me, when I get tired, I I think about yourself and so many people out there are doing the hard work, and um we all like we all lean on each other. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03:

And thank you for your time this evening. I'm so grateful. And I hope you have a nice evening. And I'll put all your links down below so people can find you.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03:

Good night.

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Tabitha MacDonald

Host